tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post5105162352436588990..comments2024-03-18T05:15:00.024-04:00Comments on Brodeur is a Fraud: Don't Always Believe Your Lying EyesThe Contrarian Goaltenderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03433370306939690205noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-68974932625815592932013-05-03T03:28:13.445-04:002013-05-03T03:28:13.445-04:00I have to admit that it is quite biased but at lea...I have to admit that it is quite biased but at least they supposed to take under consideration a lot of things that you don't see some of them.Host PPHhttp://www.hostpph.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-80045985141977316172009-09-24T10:34:05.121-04:002009-09-24T10:34:05.121-04:00Thanks for the correction, the 1968-69 Blues did o...Thanks for the correction, the 1968-69 Blues did of course have Glenn Hall as well as Jacques Plante in net. That's quite the tandem, and with the Blues playing in the expansion teams division it's no wonder they finished top of the league in GA.The Contrarian Goaltenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03433370306939690205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-81231214027597752622009-09-24T02:14:11.072-04:002009-09-24T02:14:11.072-04:00Glenn Hall played for STL in '69, not Chicago....Glenn Hall played for STL in '69, not Chicago. That was a big reason Chicago was 8th of 12 in GA.<br />STL allowed by far the fewest goals (157) in '69.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-44584533143676168532009-09-23T10:35:05.361-04:002009-09-23T10:35:05.361-04:00I know sportswriters annually show ignorance, but ...<i>I know sportswriters annually show ignorance, but that doesn't let them off the hook in my opinion.</i><br /><br />I guess that's a fair point. I just think that evaluating and understanding goaltending is very different than evaluating and understanding skaters, and one can be very knowledgeable about one and not the other. I think the voters have generally been pretty good about evaluating skaters. There are a lot more skaters than goalies out there, and the ratio of people who are good at evaluating skaters compared to those who are evaluating goalies is probably similar.<br /><br />If someone has never played goalie and hasn't ever really studied it and just goes based on the conventional hockey wisdom, they aren't really going to know what they are talking about a lot of the time. That's just the way it is. So yeah, I guess you can blame them for not knowing better, I'm just saying I'm not particularly surprised by it.<br /><br /><i>Wasn't referring to GAA and I was referring to top teams in the GA category.</i><br /><br />Sorry, I misunderstood you. Most of them of course were from the top teams, if the goalies ranked #1 in GAA. Up until the mid-'60s, the same goalie played all or almost all of the team's games, so the GAA leader was on the team with the GA lead almost all the time.<br /><br />In the last 64 years, every goalie who played at least 50 games on the team that allowed the fewest goals against was named to the First or Second All-Star teams, other than the two exceptions I mentioned in the post (Belfour in '99, Cechmanek in '03).The Contrarian Goaltenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03433370306939690205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-49927046969801997282009-09-23T01:23:58.863-04:002009-09-23T01:23:58.863-04:00CG,
Still even if they went to GAA, the fact is t...CG,<br /><br />Still even if they went to GAA, the fact is this is supposed to be intelligent hockey people. Yes your eyes can decieve, but you would think after watching thousands of gams over their lives, they could understand that the best tenders don't always stop the most shots or allow the least goals or win the most games.<br /><br />I know sportswriters annually show ignorance, but that doesn't let them off the hook in my opinion.<br /><br />If you only saw a goalie a handful of times, you should obstain from the vote.<br /><br />And on the question, you got mt mixed up CG, I meany on teams with the lowest goals allowed, thereby signifying at least somewhat good defense. Wasn't referring to GAA and I was referring to top teams in the GA category.Corey Pronmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14630951492722455211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-6195331411764601312009-09-22T17:34:30.728-04:002009-09-22T17:34:30.728-04:00Anonymous thought this was an Eagles blog.Anonymous thought this was an Eagles blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-27657227856846381462009-09-22T16:03:19.514-04:002009-09-22T16:03:19.514-04:00And in answer to your question, the only time I...And in answer to your question, the only time I'm aware since WWII that a bottom-3 team in goals against had the First Team All-Star was Chicago in 1958 with Glenn Hall, although ranking 3rd last out of 6 teams is a lot different than ranking 3rd last out of 30. In 1969, Chicago and Hall ranked 8th in a 12 team league. Other than that, I don't think anybody has been a First Team All-Star without being on a team in the top half of the league in goals against.<br /><br />That's not really evidence of bias, though, as I think it would be exceedingly rare for a deserving Vezina winner's team to finish in the bottom 3 in goals against. They would need to face a ton of shots and have awful backups for that to happen. Florida with Luongo in 2003-04 was 22nd in goals against, for example, despite allowing the most shots against. A great goalie does make a difference.The Contrarian Goaltenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03433370306939690205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-28261071393830052812009-09-22T15:50:30.067-04:002009-09-22T15:50:30.067-04:00I think you're being too harsh on the voters, ...I think you're being too harsh on the voters, especially the ones from the '50s and '60s. I was actually a bit impressed that they always seemed to pick the GAA leader over the wins leader, which would probably almost always be a bigger mistake (although in the unbalanced Original Six era the best team was often the best defensive team as well).<br /><br />One of the reasons they likely overemphasized GAA was that was the best stat they had available to them back then. This was before official save percentages were kept, after all.<br /><br />I'm not trying to call sportswriters stupid with this post, I'm just trying to point out that subjective evaluation has biases of its own and that goaltending is simply difficult to evaluate. Most people don't do it well. There could have been some writers who were very good at picking out the best goalies regardless of team, but it's not surprising to me that they would be in the minority.<br /><br />I know from experience you have to really dig down into the numbers to get a sense of who is good and who isn't, especially in years with no parity and dynasty teams going up against expansion teams. Even then there are lots of shades of grey. It's awfully tough to separate the goalie from the team in that environment, and to do that if you don't even know their save percentages is way tougher. I have tried to see if I could tell who was the best between Bill Durnan, Turk Broda and Frank Brimsek, for example, all of whom played in an era for which we have no save percentage data, and I have to admit that I still don't know.<br /><br />In short, it's kind of understandable to me why the results came out the way they did, and again I think the writers were mostly being sincere when they did it. If you really want to rip them, rip them for being ignorant not for being stupid, but part of that was because they didn't have the available data that we have now. So I don't really see it as their fault, necessarily, even though I do view all pre-1982 First Team All-Star voting as next to worthless, other than if you want to make some argument in favour of Glenn Hall.The Contrarian Goaltenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03433370306939690205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-81192138554248909982009-09-22T13:30:54.358-04:002009-09-22T13:30:54.358-04:00Great post as always CG, its kinda disturbing how ...Great post as always CG, its kinda disturbing how retarded the voters are.<br /><br />I think what would be even more interesting is see how many teams with the lowest goals against or bottom 3 produces a first team all star goalie.Corey Pronmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14630951492722455211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-65897977556219410622009-09-22T02:29:33.262-04:002009-09-22T02:29:33.262-04:00Cheap title to grab readers.Cheap title to grab readers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com