tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post941386554277588354..comments2024-03-27T06:03:35.695-04:00Comments on Brodeur is a Fraud: New Jersey's Forgotten StarThe Contrarian Goaltenderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03433370306939690205noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-36870775861600116052022-06-22T21:30:43.943-04:002022-06-22T21:30:43.943-04:00find this more info here click to read why not t... find this <a href="https://www.dolabuy.ru/messenger-c-157_168_223/" rel="nofollow"><strong>more info here</strong></a> click to read <a href="https://www.dolabuy.ru/cosmetic-bag-c-157_190_237/" rel="nofollow"><strong>why not try here</strong></a> linked here <a href="https://www.dolabuy.ru/ophidia-c-157_168_171/designer-aaa-gucci-658551-ophidia-gg-mini-bag-in-gg-supreme-p-4199.html" rel="nofollow"><strong>websites</strong></a>mesterehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14903072447515669997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-11634101768634570582022-05-11T20:17:36.298-04:002022-05-11T20:17:36.298-04:00this hyperlink replica louis vuitton special inf... this hyperlink <a href="https://www.dolabuy.ru/20cm-c-157_190_228_229/new-cc-fashion-python-classic-flap-small-bag-a1116-p-1410.html" rel="nofollow"><strong>replica louis vuitton</strong></a> special info <a href="https://www.dolabuy.ru/pouch-c-157_158_346/flawless-louis-vuitton-replica-m80900-key-pouch-monogram-empreinte-leather-bag-p-4285.html" rel="nofollow"><strong>bags replica gucci</strong></a> redirected here <a href="https://www.dolabuy.ru/pochette-c-157_158_166/best-louis-vuitton-replica-monogram-canvas-pochette-double-zip-m63905-black-p-1071.html" rel="nofollow"><strong>gucci replica bags</strong></a>mcdeashehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01525477137107442374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-58557018992372551312021-06-29T05:44:23.744-04:002021-06-29T05:44:23.744-04:00golden goose
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You don't need to convince me that Patr...Nice post. You don't need to convince me that Patrik Elias is one of the NHL's more underrated players, but that's a nice set of numbers to support that position.<BR/><BR/><I>Many hockey observers, especially New Jersey fans themselves, claim that the current New Jersey Devils squad is a motley crew of castoffs and journeymen, held singlehandedly together by Martin Brodeur.</I><BR/><BR/>Well that's an extreme position. Nobody can hold a team togther singlehandedly ... even the great Roberto Luongo couldn't make the playoffs on a motley squad of castoffs and journeymen in Florida. You can't get 100 points a year with no decent skaters for goodness sake. Patrik Elias, whose +162 is 6th among active players, is the best of an underrated crew. Not sure they're collectively much better than average, but the team doesn't completely stink either. <BR/><BR/><I>How did the Devils do without Martin Brodeur over that same time period? New Jersey was 6-7-5 in games without Martin Brodeur for a .472 winning percentage, and 135-73-20 with MB30 between the pipes (.636). That's a gap of .164, compared to Elias' difference of .152 (although the "without Brodeur" sample is much smaller). New Jersey allowed a lot fewer goals with Brodeur in net (2.30 per game) than with his backups (3.20).</I><BR/><BR/>Wow. Looks like their goalie is pretty good too.<BR/><BR/>Btw, the up-to-the-minute numbers for 2008-09 are as follows:<BR/><BR/>With Brodeur: 6-2-2, .700; 2.16<BR/>Without Brodeur: 1-5-0, .167, 2.75Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01190620732067746768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-76765794266276871882008-11-15T00:40:00.000-05:002008-11-15T00:40:00.000-05:00First of all, I don't know how many times I have w...First of all, I don't know how many times I have written that Roy and Dryden played on great teams. Way more than I can remember. They both played on many awesome, stacked teams. So stop trying to fabricate a double standard.<BR/><BR/>Obviously I looked at Elias to prove a point, that Brodeur isn't singlehandedly carrying the team. I very clearly explained that point in the first paragraph of the above post - the point is that the general public tends to underrate the value of the New Jersey skaters, and in particular Patrik Elias, in terms of their contribution to winning hockey games. That does not "discredit" Brodeur, unless your viewpoint is that Brodeur singlehandedly deserves all the credit for his team's success.<BR/><BR/>If that is indeed your view, then you are wrong because hockey is a team sport. However, if you still want to argue it, please debate the point by refuting the evidence in the post or bringing in additional evidence, rather than accusing me of a lack of subjectivity. Whether or not I am biased against Brodeur, the Devils still won a lot more and allowed a lot fewer goals with Elias in the lineup. On this blog, ad hominem attacks are never going to win an argument.The Contrarian Goaltenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03433370306939690205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-12192962854964061792008-11-14T19:20:00.000-05:002008-11-14T19:20:00.000-05:00oh so then i guess its just coincidence you picked...oh so then i guess its just coincidence you picked a guy from the same team as brodeur? i guess similar studies will follow about forsberg/ sakic on colorado. robinson/shutt/richard/ lafluer on montreal, and lafontaine on buffalo? if so then i guess it was my mistake for viewing your "research" as subjective.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-21988267552513565812008-11-14T13:37:00.000-05:002008-11-14T13:37:00.000-05:00Good post on Elias. You've hit on a lot of fallaci...Good post on Elias. You've hit on a lot of fallacies about goaltender evaluation on this blog, and the view that the value of a 1st line forward = # of points scored is equally wrong. <BR/><BR/>Elias has certainly been a big part of New Jersey's success and has consistently been an elite forward, whether he was among the leaders in points or not. I'm sure he could have scored a few more points if he went all Ilya Kovalcuk, stopped backchecking, and started trying to beat every defender himself, but instead he's played a great team game and been the best of a strong forward corps.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous - The point of goalie statistics, or indeed any hockey statistic, is to measure a players contribution to the team winning games and making the playoffs/winning the Cup. Adjusting stats for historical context is simply maintaining the relationship to winning games. It's a question of VALUE, not necessarily of what-if.<BR/><BR/>A win in the post-lockout era where points are given out like candy simply isn't worth as much as a win in a time when 2 points were given out in every game. Similarly, 30 wins in an 82 game season is less valuable than 30 wins in an 80 game season, which is less valuable than 30 wins in a 70 game season, because it takes more wins to make the playoffs in a longer season. <BR/><BR/>If you don't understand this, you don't understand anything about how hockey statistics relate to the game of hockey as played on ice. You can look at your lists of unadjusted stats all you like, imagine that Martin Brodeur is the greatest goalie ever and Mark Messier is better than Gordie Howe, and you'll won't have a clue.overpasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05106889069832791092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-67752742201912054412008-11-14T12:29:00.000-05:002008-11-14T12:29:00.000-05:00How is the above post discrediting Brodeur? It is...How is the above post discrediting Brodeur? It is <I>crediting</I> Patrik Elias. I was merely pointing out that New Jersey has a player who outplays the opposition whenever he is on the ice and has a demonstrable impact in terms of winning games and preventing goals. If you don't like those numbers, then how about this: Elias has led his team in scoring 6 of the last 8 seasons (and 5 of the last 8 playoff seasons). If claiming that guy is a star player is an insult to Brodeur, then what exactly am I allowed to write about Marty other than, to quote the presumably sarcastic comment above, "martin bodeur is best evr becuz he has low goalavg lots of shutsouts! he best!!"<BR/><BR/>It could just be random chance or pure luck that the team does very well with him the lineup and mediocre without. It could also be pure fluke that New Jersey dominates the opposition and allows far fewer goals with Elias out on the ice, I don't know, but I wouldn't bet on it.<BR/><BR/><I>its getting ridiculous. this site used to be pretty credible but between all these theoretical "what if everyone was equal" studies, and the "lets compare eras by manipulating the actual numbers" its turning into the type of site i'd expect from a born again catholic who is dead set on proving their point to everyone</I><BR/><BR/>I thought I've been doing era adjustments and comparing guys on different teams and evaluating what-if scenarios ever since I started this blog. If I haven't, my mistake, because that was certainly my intention. And quite frankly I have no intent to stop, because looking at simply what goalies have done without considering anything else will simply cause you to give credit to the wrong people. I think I have demonstrated that enough times to make it clear.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your readership, but if you have a problem with normalizing for era (one of the most basic stat techniques out there, literally the very first thing they would teach you in Hockey Stats 101) then I don't really know what to tell you. I certainly don't feel compelled to defend the legitimacy of that technique here.The Contrarian Goaltenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03433370306939690205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-20737056957876886072008-11-14T11:28:00.000-05:002008-11-14T11:28:00.000-05:00and, martin bodeur is best evr becuz he has low go...and, martin bodeur is best evr becuz he has low goalavg lots of shutsouts! he best!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8148461224473220694.post-29828251390165129772008-11-14T02:55:00.000-05:002008-11-14T02:55:00.000-05:00the more you go out of your way to attempt to disc...the more you go out of your way to attempt to discredit brodeur with all of these very irrelevant and obscure blogs, the less credibility your site has. are you really trying to say patrik elias is a superstar who is largely responsible for nj's success? the only time elias was close to being a top player in the league is when he was on a line with arnott and sykora. that lasted for at most 2 years.<BR/>its getting ridiculous. this site used to be pretty credible but between all these theoretical "what if everyone was equal" studies, and the "lets compare eras by manipulating the actual numbers" its turning into the type of site i'd expect from a born again catholic who is dead set on proving their point to everyone, even if it means stretching the truth and cherry picking arguments while ignoring what the actual truth is. <BR/>elias has always been a good, but not great player. i understand you want the attention for your site, and there is no better way to do it than go against the grain to the extent you have. but as far as being credible goes, it wouldnt hurt to admit the obvious stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com